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Women and Children
And some other schmo on Hannity & Colmes said something about the US "bombing women and children" in Iraq. Boy, was that ever a mistake -- Hannity wouldn’t let that one go for the rest of the conversation.
Like so many other statements being made about the war, this one requires that the speaker be either clinically brain-dead or deliberately lying. If this war was about bombing women and children, or "exterminiating Iraqis" as the Iraqi UN represenatative recently said, it would have been over in one day. We would have simply carpet-bombed Baghdad and every other major city in Iraq, reducing the entire country to a pile of rubble. Because we most certainly could have done that. We could do that right now. It would reduce the risk of allied casualties to near-zero and it would cut costs dramatically too.
The reason that hasn’t happened is because that isn’t the plan. The reason there have been so remarkably few Iraqi civillian deaths, and so remarkably little damage to non-military facilities, is because we want it that way. Because it is our will for that to be the case. We are in control.
Comments:
Hi, i would like to add a comment... While it is true, that the US-attack is not directed against women and children but rather against the iraqi leadership, one cannot deny that innocent people get killed..
For many people this is the ultimative argument. From their point of view, all achievements in terms of freedom a.s.f. are void as soon as there is at least one innocent person killed. This is a valid view, in my opinion. I don’t share it, but i can understand it..
This is indeed a difficult question. I don’t know, if there weren’t a better way than bombing and war, which is the mother of all evil.
Well anyways. There’s more reasons, why the US engagement in iraq is viewed critically among many people. The goal is a honourable one. Freeing the iraqi people from a dictator who is responsible for 100.000s of deaths is an intent to which every pacifist would have to agree (put aside the means with which to accomplish this goal). Now, even if many people agree in principal that the war is the last solution to this problem, the way this war was forced upon the world by the US-leadership has to be considered problematic.
There is no doubt that the USA are the world’s strongest military power at the moment and they can pretty much do what they want, but to show this in such a blatant way is very stupid (from a diplomatic point of view). It is as stupid as the german chancelors all-exclusive no to a military engagement in iraq.
The UN is an organisation which is held together by international treaties and the UN is a good thing (tm). Just ignoring it and basically saying "we don’t care what the UN says, we have it our way anyways" destroys decades of international coorperation and could turn out to backfire badly..
The USA are a military superpower, but from an economic point of view, they are not really the leader of the pack. Plus: military powers don’t prevent terroristic attacks, which is one of the stated goals of this war. This is a goal which (if one uses a little brain one can easily see) cannot be achieved by using warfare against states which support terrorism... Terrorism doesn’t need support by states. Terrorism cannot be countered by military force. There’s many examples in younger history: Spain’s ETA, Irelands catholic vs. protestant confilict. Israelis vs. palestenians. In no case has the use of military power ever had any use in preventing terrorism...
One last thing: There is many cases history, where the USA tried to intervene in souvereign states and the motives have often been doubtable. Why should it be different in this case. While i, personally, like the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein, i hope everyday, that as few lives as possible are destroyed. Be it iraqi soldiers (who have no choice but fighting), coalition troops (who often don’t hae a choice either, that is the fundamental problem of being a soldier) or iraqi civilians who don’t have a choice either.. Many people in the world think the same: The USA have a long history of doing bull[oops] in souvereign foreign states. The USA also have done great things in the world. What are we up to now? Besides freeing the iraqi people.. Why was the first war in iraq stopped? Why weren’t the opponents of Hussein supported in their effort to rid themselfes of the dictator? Why did america sell weapons to iran and iraq in the iran/iraq war which cost 100.000s lives? Why did germans sell chemical equipment to iraq which was later used to kill kurds with chemical warfare? Why did nobody interfere that genocide back then?
There’s too many open questions.. The thing is: nobody buys the idea of america being a moral leader in the world. I hope, the american people don’t buy it either... There’s interests besides freedom and peacein the world.
Thanks for reading..
Florian Schmidt
From their point of view, all achievements in terms of freedom a.s.f. are void as soon as there is at least one innocent person killed. This is a valid view, in my opinion.
I don’t think that’s valid at all. That viewpoint is the result of an idealistic worldview, the kind of worldview that never accomplishes anything because it is by definition out of touch with the realities of the world. Every solution to the Iraqi problem involves death, including the "solution" of non-action, which will simply result in the continued accumulation of casualties by the regime itself. Rational people cannot allow themselves to be stalled by idealist rhetoric that says "all war is bad because people will die," because every second that is allowed, people continue to die.
bombing and war, which is the mother of all evil.
War is not the mother of all evil; allowing ruthless murdering dictators to go unchecked is much worse (cf Hitler, and now Saddam). This is particularly true when you consider that the world spent 12 years in a futile attempt at non-war means of ending that reign.
the way this war was forced upon the world by the US-leadership has to be considered problematic.
Some people seem to blame the US for the current state of affairs. How any person can excuse Saddam and blame the US is beyond me. Regardless, the US didn’t "force this war" upon anyone. The weasels (France, etc) didn’t want to do anything about the problem, so they aren’t, and we’re not asking them to. Those nations who support this war to remove Saddam have made themselves known, and to date there are nearly 50 such nations, with another dozen or so who privately support it. The fact is that France has done a lot of whining about the US acting "unilaterally" and that is simply propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The UN is an organisation which is held together by international treaties and the UN is a good thing (tm). Just ignoring it and basically saying "we don’t care what the UN says, we have it our way anyways" destroys decades of international coorperation and could turn out to backfire badly..
With each passing day, it seems more true that the UN is dead or dying, and that like the League of Nations, it will pass. I tend to agree, especially in light of the fact that its own members actively prohibited the enforcement of 17 of its own resolutions. Furthermore I’d go so far as to say that the UN is based on a flawed concept to begin with -- the idea that all nations can somehow "just get along" and "all basically agree" on things. It works for a time while it’s serving a specific, well-defined purpose, but it cannot last forever. To expect it to last forever is to take that same overly simplistic idealist view of the world.
Plus: military powers don’t prevent terroristic attacks, which is one of the stated goals of this war. This is a goal which (if one uses a little brain one can easily see) cannot be achieved by using warfare against states which support terrorism...
Removing Saddam’s regime will not end all terrorism, and no one expects it to. It’s only one (rather big) piece of the larger problem. It would be foolish to not act to remove terrorist states and groups. Of course by their decentralized nature such groups aren’t "defeated" in the same ways, or in the same timeframes, as traditional enemy threats. But I don’t see throwing our hands up and saying "we can’t do anything about it" as an acceptable option. We’re doing what we can, and we’re learning and adapting to these new types of threats.
Terrorism doesn’t need support by states.
That’s not true. Terrorists need food, shelter, weapons, and general funding, just like any other person/group (well, except for the weapons maybe...) States like Iraq that directly support terrorist groups (the first casualty in the first night of bombing was a leader of the PLF terror group, who was meeting with Iraqi officials... Saddam gives $10,000 and $25,000 rewards to the families of suicide bombers...) are a good place to start to break down those groups.
coalition troops (who often don’t hae a choice either, that is the fundamental problem of being a soldier)
That’s not true. Our army is a volunteer army.
Why was the first war in iraq stopped? Why weren’t the opponents of Hussein supported in their effort to rid themselfes of the dictator?
Because the first war was fought to save Kuwait, not to overthrow Saddam. However in retrospect we probably should have done that too. Of course, we had no way of knowing that Saddam would break all the agreements he made in the cease-fire.
used to kill kurds with chemical warfare? Why did nobody interfere that genocide back then?
Peter Galbraith, former Iraq expert on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said this in an interview:
I was working for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee at the time, and I included it in the report, which was part of a larger study that we were doing of the Iran-Iraq war. But frankly at that time, like the Reagan administration, we were more concerned about what might happen if Iran won the Iran-Iraq war, and so this information did not get a lot of focus.
There is a serious problem with your position here, though. The assertion that we shouldn’t do anything about it now, because we didn’t do anything about it then, is one proffered by many in the anti-war camp. Of course it’s pure nonsense -- nothing would ever be solved if we made our decisions based on that kind of reasoning -- and furthermore it fails to offer any alternative solutions.
The thing is: nobody buys the idea of america being a moral leader in the world. I hope, the american people don’t buy it either...
Something like 80% of Americans feel we’re doing the right thing, and apparently those 60-plus nations supporting the war do, too.
There’s interests besides freedom and peacein the world.
Of course there are. We’re not fighting this war for philanthropic motives, we’re fighting it because it’s in our best interests to remove the threat posed by Saddam. The Iraqi people will be liberated and that’s good too. It’s not "all about the oooiil!" as some people are implying; we sure as heck could’ve taken Iraq’s (and Kuwait’s) oil in 1991 if we really wanted it. But to prove the fallacy in your reasoning, let’s assume we are motivated by our evil American greed for oil. Does that mean we should just leave Saddam in power, because we have multiple reasons for taking him out? Should we continue to let him torture and murder his people, because our interests are not "purely selfless"? Should we let the weapons inspections go another 12 years or so, with Saddam revealing bits and pieces until we withdraw our troops from his borders, and he eventually kicks the inspectors out again? How many UN resolutions giving him "one final chance" to fully disarm do you propose? The first 17 didn’t do a darn thing, and he didn’t start "cooperating" even slightly until there were 200,000 US troops crowding his turf. Those forces can’t be maintained there indefinitely.
We probably should have removed him 12 years ago, but the fact is we didn’t, and he needs removing now more than ever.
>That viewpoint is the result of an idealistic worldview, the kind of worldview that never >accomplishes anything because it is by definition out of touch with the realities of the world.
I don’t know any numbers, but i would estimate, that the idealistic "peace"-fraction is pretty small compared to those who oppose this war for other reasons. Like, for example: will this war really help to decrease the number of people dying forcefully through out the world? What if terrorism increases by 100s of percent as a result of this war? What if the war is really counterproductive in regards to stabilization of the arab world?
>There is a serious problem with your position here, though. The assertion that we shouldn’t >do anything about it now, because we didn’t do anything about it then, is one proffered by >many in the anti-war camp. Of course it’s pure nonsense -- nothing would ever be solved if >we made our decisions based on that kind of reasoning -- and furthermore it fails to offer >any alternative solutions.
This is true. I stated this point though, to illustrate the questions that many people have regarding this war and american politics in the past. I’m not against overthrowing Saddams regime with military force. I _do_ have great concerns about the way this war was initiated,
I definetly think, that for a working "world police" , we not only need military power, but we also need a legal framework plus we need a judical instance which can handle war crimes.. I don’t know the english word for this, but this concept is referred to as "seperation of powers" and it is usually agreed upon this being a good thing (tm).
The US did not agree to obey the international court of justice. They pretty much "opted out" of the UN (yes, i know, this is a tad bit of an exaggeration :). So what legal framework is left?
>We probably should have removed him 12 years ago, but the fact is we didn’t, and he >needs removing now more than ever.
I agree, but we are in an important historic process of creating global intitutions and global law. I think that the way the US-government started this war, was very harmful to this process.
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Florian Schmidt
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