Belkin Technical Support is Neither

[Note: this is the record of my attempts to get Belkin to fix a massive flaw in the design of their "routers."  The bottom line is that they refused to even acknowledge the flaw, and the result is that computers on the LAN side of a Belkin router can’t access servers on the LAN using the router’s public IP address or hostname.  Because of this, and Belkin’s refusal to acknowledge, let alone fix, the problem, I must strongly discourage anyone from purchasing a Belkin router.]

I can’t stand tech support.  It wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t all thoroughly clueless, but they are.

Me:


Hello,

I just bought an F5D72304 router, and I’m having a problem with it.

I’ve got a few computers on the LAN-side of the router that are running services (http, ssh, etc).  From any computer on the internet outside of my LAN, I can access those services without problems.  But any computer inside my F5D72304’s LAN cannot access those services, whether on other systems in the LAN or on itself, through my public IP address.  If I use the computers’ LAN IPs then it works OK, but not if I use the public IP.

Let me use some numbers to make it more clear:

My public IP is x.y.1.194
Belkin router’s private LAN IP is 172.19.5.250
Computer lanbox-1 is IP 172.19.5.1
Computer lanbox-2 is IP 172.19.5.2
Computer lanbox-2 is running http on port 89
Computer remotebox is elsewhere on the internet

These connections work OK:

  remotebox -> x.y.1.194:89 (http over external IP)
  lanbox-1 -> 172.19.5.2:89 (http over internal IP)
  lanbox-2 -> 172.19.5.2:89 (http over internal IP)

But these connections do NOT work:

  lanbox-1 -> x.y.1.194:89 (http over external IP)
  lanbox-2 -> x.y.1.194:89 (http over external IP)

I’ve tried putting lanbox-2 (my http server) in the DMZ, but that didn’t change anything.  I’ve tried different ports than 89, still no success. I’ve looked around the router config but didn’t see anything that would fix this.  I have another router (an older D-Link model) configured exactly the same as the new Belkin (i.e. LAN is 172.19.5.* and forwarding port 89 to 172.19.5.2) and it doesn’t have this problem.

Please help!

Thanks,
Anthony DiSante


Them:


Hi Anthony,

Thank you for contacting Belkin Technical Support.

We understand that you are not able to access the services with the Wan IP from your network.

Anthony, There is a feature called NAT is present in the router. If you are trying to acess the router setup page from the external computer.  When the router see the WAN IP from the external network then it can perform natting that is it will change the public IP address of the external network computer in to  the prvate IP address range, which helps you to view the services. But with in the intenal network natting is not possible since the internal network already has the private IP address. That is why you are not able to use the wan IP to view the services in internal network.

Hope this information helps.

Regards,

[some person]
Belkin Technical Support.


Me:


Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the behavior I am experiencing is the correct behavior?  You are saying that it’s correct that I cannot access services on my LAN from a system on my LAN using the public IP address?

If so, then that is a flaw in the design of your router.  I have used a half-dozen routers from various manufacturers and none of them exhibit this behavior.  When I use the router’s firewall to forward port X to box-2 on the LAN, that means "when a packet arrives at the WAN interface for port X, pass it through to box-2 on the LAN interface."  The source of the packet is irrelevant; all the router needs to know is that it arrived at the external interface, and that I’ve configured a firewall rule that explains how to handle that situation.

This is definitely worthy of a firmware upgrade, but in the meantime I’ll have to remove the F5D72304 from my network and put my old D-Link router in its place.

-Anthony DiSante


Them:


Hi Anthony,

Thank you for contacting Belkin Technical Support.

Anthony, we understand that you are not able to access services in your LAN using WAN IP address.

Belkin routers are enabled with NAT feature. This will not allow you to access the services locally by using the WAN IP address.

When you are trying to access the services from your LAN using the WAN IP address, the request goes upto the router then redirect the request internally in your LAN. The resolution happens in the router itself, hence the request doesnot go the internet and redirect to the router since it is a NAT enabled router.

The same thing happens with all the routers with NAT feature.

We hope this information is helpful. Please let us know if you require any further assistance. We’ll be glad to help you.

Regards,

[a different person]
Belkin Technical Support


Me:


Hello,

> Belkin routers are enabled with NAT feature.

So is every router I’ve ever used.  NAT is the whole point of using a router in a home network, since it allows you to have multiple computers on a private network connected to the public internet, with the router translating the addresses.  This feature is not unique to Belkin routers.

> This will not allow you to access the
> services locally by using the WAN IP
> address. ... The same thing happens with
> all the routers with NAT feature.

That is simply not true.  Every router I’ve ever used has allowed me to access services on my LAN via the WAN IP.  I have two other routers right next to me that I’ve been testing to make sure of it -- the Belkin is the only one that exhibits this error.

-Anthony DiSante


Me, again:


Hello,

> the request goes upto the router then
> redirect the request internally in your
> LAN.  The resolution happens in the router
> itself, hence the request doesnot go the
> internet and redirect to the router

That’s exactly the problem.  When a packet arrives at the WAN interface, it DOES "go [to] the internet" because the WAN IP is an internet IP.  So the router should treat it like any other packet arriving at the WAN interface; it doesn’t matter where the packet came from (LAN or remote system), what matters is that I sent it to the WAN interface.

-Anthony DiSante

ARGH.  How can you work tech support for a company’s router products and NOT KNOW WHAT A ROUTER IS SUPPOSED TO DO?

And it REALLY bugs me how a different person replies to the email every time when you email a company’s tech support.  Each successive person ostensibly reads the earlier conversation, but then just says the exact same thing.  That makes me so mad.  I emailed Dell a couple months ago, asking if I could get a laptop without Windows installed, and therefore without having to pay the $200 Microsoft tax. There were about ten -- TEN -- exchanges where I said "why is it Dell’s policy to force a particular operating system on the customer?" and the Dell rep said "it is Dell’s policy to force Windows XP on the customer" (essentially).  Each time it was a different person, each time I asked "WHY??!?", and each time the response just restated the fact that it IS the case without addressing WHY.

And as if ALL THAT weren’t enough, the tech support responses are always replete with typos and misspellings.

Posted by Anthony on 13 replies

Comments:

01. Mar 3, 2005 at 09:57am by Kev:

I agree that technical support is neither. I have had a lot of success with Linksys routers. I had the 4-port (wired only) BEFSR41 router when I still lived with my parents. Currently, my wife and I use the 4-port wireless BEFW11S4 router. Since it was much cheaper that the router that handles 802.11g, and since my laptop has only an 802.11b card, this was the right choice at the time.
If you still don’t have any luck with the Belkin router, if it’s possible, return it to the store and get yourself a Linksys. The web style configuration interface is really easy and straightforward, and lets you do everything that you’ve talked about it your post above.

02. Mar 3, 2005 at 03:06pm by Anthony:

Yeah, I’ve used routers made by Linksys, D-Link, and Netgear, and none of them have been broken in this way.  This one was $70 with $55 in rebates so I figured what the heck.  But yes, I’ll be returning it.

03. Mar 3, 2005 at 03:10pm by Anthony:

Here’s more:

Them:


Hi Anthony,

Thank you for contacting Belkin Technical Support.

We understand that you are not able to use the WAN IP address to access the services in the LAN from within the LAN.

Anthony, the Belkin SOHO routers comes with NAT enabled and does not permit the usage of the public IP addresses to access LAN services from within the LAN. This is how the Belkin Routers work.

However, we would like to thank you for the update.

Anthony, if you need further assistance, please feel free to write back to us and we will be happy to assist you.

Regards,

[yet another person]
Belkin Technical Support.

Them again:


Hi Anthony,

Thank you for contacting Belkin Technical Support.

We understand that you are not able to access LAN services from within the LAN using the WAN IP address.

Anthony, the Belkin SOHO routers comes with NAT enabled and also does not permit the usage of WAN IP addresses to access LAN services from within the LAN. This is how the Belkin Routers are designed to work.

Anthony, if you need further assistance, please feel free to write back to us and we will be happy to assist you.

Regards,

[finally, the same other person]
Belkin Technical Support.

Me:


> Anthony, if you need further assistance,
> please feel free to write back to us

"Further" assistance?  You haven’t helped me at all, so you can’t possibly offer "further" assistance.  Your router’s design has a gaping flaw and you won’t so much as acknowledge it.  Its "NAT feature" is broken in a way that makes it function completely differently from every other router ever made, and you say "that is how it’s supposed to work."  Your technical support is a joke -- I’ve had five different responses now from three different people and they all say exactly the same thing while completely ignoring the issue.

I’m returning this router, since it’s useless, being that it’s broken and you refuse to acknowledge that.  I’ll never buy another Belkin product and I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.

-Anthony DiSante

04. Mar 9, 2005 at 12:38am by Anthony:

A week later, here’s their next response:

Thank you for contacting Belkin Tech Support:

We apologize for the problem you are experiencing. However based on your problem description sounds like you are trying to do a loopback which all our routers does not support. We understand that other routers support it. For example: if you want to access your Web Server within your LAN, you have to type in the private IP. You can only use the WAN IP outside your LAN. Again we apologize for the inconvenience.

Thank you,

[random person #4]
Technical Support
Belkin Corporation

And my reply:

Hello,

> We apologize for the problem you are
> experiencing. ... We understand that
> other routers support it. For example:
> if you want to access your Web Server
> within your LAN, you have to type in
> the private IP. You can only use the WAN
> IP outside your LAN. Again we apologize
> for the inconvenience.

I appreciate the apology; now you should fix the bug.  Surely you must understand how insane this situation is.  If my network’s public hostname is mycompany.com, and I’m a web developer on the LAN, your router prevents me from testing and debugging my company’s website, since I cannot access it in the same way that my customers do, through its public address.  And the non-technical employees of my company (the sales division, for example) don’t know about LANs or IP addresses -- all they know is that they work for mycompany.com but they can’t even access their employer’s website from the company network!  Please tell me you understand that that is insane and is not how a router is supposed to function.

-Anthony DiSante

Of course I’ve already returned the router; I can’t run a broken network indefinitely in the hopes that they’ll eventually fix the bug.  But it’d be nice to actually get an admission of guilt out of them.

05. Mar 27, 2005 at 08:54am by Joel:

Man, I can totally empathize with your frustration of this insanity.
I’ve been spending all night trying to figure out how to get my webcam server viewable by people who aren’t on my school network.

This school hates geeks.

06. Jun 12, 2005 at 04:31am by sdluo:

Zzz.. i think i’ve got a serious problem with belkin router now, i’m using fsd7230-4 and i disabled NAT recently. i wanted to enable it back now, but i can’t enter my router’s setup page. can anyone help me out because i’ve got multiple users.

07. Jun 12, 2005 at 09:23am by Anthony:

You can always do a firmware-reset on the router: there should be a tiny button somewhere on it that you can press with the tip of a pen.  Press it and hold it down for maybe 10 seconds and the router should get reset to defaults.  Of course you’ll lose any customizations you’ve made (forwarding rules, etc).

08. Jul 24, 2005 at 03:44pm by Varrojo:

hey man, the same happened to me, configured the virtual server settings and couldn’t access my website from it’s wan IP, i thought maybe there was something wrong with the config but now that i have read the forum see what’s going on. I must say i couldn’t agree more, this "feature" or watever they want to call it seems more like a bug.

Respect,
Varrojo

09. Aug 20, 2005 at 12:51pm by simon:

Had the same problem with belkin support ending up by saying sorry but we will not be updating the firmware.  email below, my mate has a F5D7630UK4A and does not have the problem, What one did you buy to get around this?

Good Morning,

Thank you for your email.

Upon investigating it appears that there will never be a firmware update for this router to enable loop back support.

I would suggest that if this feature is a must then you will need to return the unit to where it was purchased and exchange this for another manufacturers modem router that offers loop back functionality.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any problems that this may cause.

If you should need further assistance please feel free to contact me again.

Paul Carpenter
Technical Support Escalations Coordinator
Belkin Ltd
Mailto:euroescalation@Belkin.com

Tel:00 44 (0) 1933 352070

Office Hours : Mon-Fri 08:30 - 17:30

If replying please include this e-mail

10. Aug 20, 2005 at 03:11pm by Anthony:

I bought the Netgear WGR614v5 and it doesn’t have this bug.

11. Jan 4, 2008 at 11:05am by Richard:

Hello.
I know its has passed a lot time since the begining of this post but after 1 week I finaly  realise a sad conclusion , that the F5D72304 belkin router was a really bad choice.
I was looking everywhere to find a solution for the exact same problem, but now I see its more dificult than I expected !
Do u think a static route to a server in my lan would fix the problem of my wan ip access ?
I guess not so I really need to think about bying a new router !
Cus I have all the upgrade this router have until now and still nothing work.

anyway I just want to thank you for all the hard work and to post this problem here, you made a diference.
bb

12. Jan 4, 2008 at 09:01pm by Anthony:

Quoting Richard:

Do u think a static route to a server in my lan would fix the problem of my wan ip access ?

I’m not sure about that, and I don’t have this router anymore to try it out.

13. Mar 23, 2008 at 08:21am by phil taylor:

Have had the same problem with a belkin f5d7833-4. It is a pain because software i develop has to be modified before going live to swap the ip addresses.

One interesting thing though is that if you ping the wan ip or tracert the wan ip you do get connectivity. You can even telnet to the wan ip and it gives you a belkin login prompt (although my router login details don’t let me in) It doesn’t work when you formulate a http request though.


phil

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